After Selling Loom for $975M, He Disappeared — Vinay Hiremath

Rory: In 2023, you and I are out at a restaurant in New York. And then 3 days later, I open Twitter and the front page of Twitter, Bloom has been acquired by Atlassian for $975 million. And amazingly, that's not the most interesting part of this story.

Vinay: The way it felt, I mean, it was very

Rory: You left 65 million roughly on the

Vinay: I mean, like, I've had like complicated emotions related to it.

Rory: Walk me through that decision to walk away and leave money on the table. A huge amount of money. I need to find meaning again. And published a piece,

Vinay: a very interesting piece. Uh, I am rich and I am lost.

Rory: Which ended up getting pretty tremendous distribution. It was published in a lot of major publications. I saw it on Lad

Vinay: I had so much of that anger. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to like write as a means to like get it out.

Rory: You know, I think a lot about my future kids and what I can tell them about money and their time and freedom. And freedom is like a a top personal value for me.

Vinay: Have you ever regretted it?

Rory: Good night. How are you?

Vinay: It's good to see you.

Rory: I don't even know where to start with you because for some of the guests we've had on, there's like a clear like

Vinay: they did X and then Y happened.

Rory: Let me just recap our listeners through the last few years of your life. It's it's a great place to start.

Vinay: In 2023, you and I are out at a restaurant in New York and I ask you how work is going. An innocent innocent enough question

Rory: and uh you said, you know, yeah, things are pretty good right now. It might be amazing in a week. It might be terrible in a week. I don't really know. And then three days later, I open Twitter and the front page of Twitter, Loom has been acquired by Atlassian for $975 million

Vinay: And amazingly, that's not the most interesting part of this story. Not even by not even by a stretch. So, in the time since then, I have seen you uh go to the Himalayas to find yourself

Rory: involving a near-death accident.

Vinay: My my E Pray Lob chapter.

Rory: Your E love chapter. Uh you rang me like a year ago and said, "I'm moving to Hawaii to learn physics. I'm not coming back until I learn physics."

Vinay: Yeah. You spent four weeks at Doge inner workings of the government and then

Rory: More recently, you're sleeping on a factory floor in San Francisco learning

Vinay: I don't even know where to start with you. So, I think it

Rory: dude. Yeah. I mean, seriously,

Vinay: a good opening question is uh it feels like everything until now it's just act one and this is like the warm up and you're just getting going.

Rory: That's, you know, that's certainly what it feels like. I don't know if like it's act one to, you know, like some big entrepreneurial journey or whatever. Like I have no idea where this is going. You know what I mean? But I'm having a ton of fun, dude. I'm having a ton of

Vinay: So, let's drive straight into the meat of it.

Rory: We were hanging out in 2023. You had this looming acquisition. Great pun.

Vinay: Yeah, great pun

Rory: on the horizon. What was that? Tell walk me through that week. What's it like knowing you might be about to sell at immense valuation? Is it nerves? Is it elation? Is it are you terrified? How does that feel? You know, it was weird that that week, man, that was like such a weird moment in my life, you know, like I was in a relationship that I think at the time was like 7 months in and my my ex at the time uh her dad was passing away from stage four esophageal

Vinay: Um yeah, and and so honestly that was just like always in the background. And then I was doing diligence right for this deal which for for people who haven't been through an acquisition. It's like you you end up having to do a bunch of work and it's a very tight group of people. So you don't have a lot of people to disperse it across cuz you don't want like other people in your company to know about it. And so I was just doing an enormous amount of work

Rory: and I had to be away from my girlfriend at the time which kind of sucked. And I was starting to uh pick up it. It began this journey, this like kind of like crazy chapter of like starting to really pick up this habit of like vaping and like getting into nicotine, which was like a whole other thing that kind of like culminated with me being in the factory. And so that's like a a separate sort of thread, but um the way it felt, I mean, it was very surreal, you know, it was weird. It was like once we announced that the team like I got everybody to go to like Time Square to go see the NASDAQ billboard and then like the NASDAQ billboard never lit up. So we were just kind of like standing around and I was super

Vinay: most hellish place on earth,

Rory: dude. [ __ ] Time Square, dude. Horrible place, you know, like great like if you're European and like visiting New York and you know you you watch Friends never go back. Yeah,

Vinay: And so like we're we're just standing around Time Square. I'm so tired. There's like a Spider-Man that's like trying to get me to take a photo a photo with him, you know, and like the billboard never goes up, but we're just like all so on cloud9. Like everybody on the team is just like, "Hell yeah." Because a year before this point, you know, we had gone through our second round of layoffs. And the team really had to like rally together

Rory: to get to a place where we we were even

Vinay: Um, and so it wasn't just like about me. Like I I think like really it just took the whole team to get their [ __ ] together and to like pull together especially like you know when you go through layoffs as a leader I think your team loses a lot of confidence in you

Rory: and it's it's very logical right like it's emotional but it's also very logical so the fact that you know the whole team was able to come together and work through that with me and Joe at the helm um it really meant a lot to me like I I think there There was this sense of like accomplishment in a way where like truly it didn't feel like I was at the head of it. Like it really felt like it was all of us. And I remember like later on that night we went to like a bar near Washington Square Park and uh one of our engineers, Ashwin, came up to me and he's like, "Bro, like you know, I just want to let you know like I always believed in you and I'm like so proud to like get to work with you." I was like, "Dude, where the [ __ ] was this?" when I was like everybody was [ __ ] on me, you know, and being like, "Wow, Venet sucks as a leader and like my glass door ratings are going down and [ __ ] I probably shouldn't check blind and I am." And people are like, "What the [ __ ] is Venet and Joe doing?" Like, but no, it was just like such a great moment and like I basically bounced from being extremely extremely sleepd deprived and then like five shots in straight to JFK to like go see my go see my ax and like be with her during this moment in her life. Um, so really hard to describe

Vinay: highest highs, lowest lows, the same.

Rory: Yeah. Like there there isn't like I wish I could give you kind of like a clean answer, but like for me personally,

Vinay: it was just like a very uh not real. We were using that term before, like not real moment. Like it just felt like there were a lot of different there was like a lot of texture.

Rory: At that point in my life,

Vinay: up until then, uh I imagine you weren't hugely liquid. uh that moment where you realize this acquisition is going through and it's 100% certain and and the first check hits the bank cuz I believe it was part cash, part equity.

Rory: First check hits the bank. What's that feeling like?

Vinay: Dude, it's so weird.

Rory: It's so weird, dude. Like cuz I mean like you you know this cuz you're you're running a company that you know you're you're absolutely crushing it. Um, and it's like you you get used to seeing all these numbers where you know your company has the money and it's like, oh yeah, like I'm managing a budget like the headcount of like $100 million.

Vinay: Moving on. It doesn't feel real.

Rory: Yeah. It doesn't feel real. And then like that kind of money where it was like a budget item for like a company.

Vinay: Is now in your bank account. And you know, like at first I I think I'm still going through it because it is like it is this sort of it's this amount of money that should make me feel incredibly stable about my position in life. But honestly, like it it has forced me both outside of leaving the

Rory: and then that no longer being an an active part of my identity, it has forced me to like have to figure out who I am again and like kind of get reacquainted with who I used to be,

Vinay: but now like in this reality where I have tons of options and it's it's really cool and I'm really grateful for it, but it's also like very confusing.

Rory: Yeah. you know, um, and I think it still hasn't fully hit me. Like I I'm still working through it. And the concept of never having to work again, like that idea has never like sat well with me. Me and you are doers. We like to do [ __ ]

Vinay: As soon as we actually I'm building again the next day, it's like exactly straight back on.

Rory: And so like also, you know, in some sense, I don't know how much, and I'm not trying to be a doomer here. I just think given like one of the major products of the United States is the

Vinay: I don't know how much confidence I have in the dollar right now. And so like if you have all this cash or even if you own all these other equities, you know, it feels like I just talking to a bunch of people, it feels like a very confusing time for people. Like the job market is really tough for a lot of people. You hear about layoffs all the time attributed to AI, maybe not. Um, but it's interesting because I hear people have all this confusion and this lack of security. And I think that when I talk to people like that, they're like, "Oh, it must be really nice to have a bunch of money." And I'm like, "It is really nice." But it's also like that same uncertainty about the future. I have it too. And I have like this attachment over this thing that's not really real, which is like a number in my bank account,

Rory: you know? And it's like that uncertainty like also will impact me obviously much less less so than somebody who has none of it. But it's weird like I don't feel

Vinay: Out of my position in life which is like so odd. I don't like there's a part of me that feels like bad about it too. Like I feel ungrateful you know but I am incredibly grateful for it. I just don't feel secure in it. This uh this really resonates because for our our listeners

Rory: we should preface that you walked away from your earnout which I think is an incredible part of your life story.

Vinay: Uh you left 65 million roughly on the table and walked away from it last year and said uh essentially I need to find meaning again

Rory: and published a piece

Vinay: a very interesting piece uh I am rich and I am lost

Rory: which ended up getting pretty tremendous distribution. It was published on a lot of major publications. I saw it on Lad Bible of all places as well. It was it was everywhere. Um and so I think you you really act how you preach like this this feels true to to how to how you've lived your life. Uh walk me through that decision to walk away and leave money on the table. A huge amount of money.

Vinay: Yeah. You know,

Rory: and have you ever regretted it?

Vinay: Yes. I mean like I've had like complicated emotions related to it. Um I overall do not regret it. I'm actually like very proud of myself and I don't like saying that very often. Like I cringe when I say that, but it's like I do hope that this is kind of like I'm thinking a lot. I'm 34, right? And I'm newly in a relationship. Um, and I'm really excited about this relationship. And, you know, I think a lot about my future kids and what I can tell them about money and their time and freedom. And freedom is like a a top personal value for me. M

Rory: um and so I'm really proud of myself overall, but I would be lying if I didn't say like I think part of what I was working through when I wrote that piece and when you know I went to you know Spectre is the name of the startup and I was living in a tent and like learning mechanical and electrical um a big part of like a narrative in the background was well you let you left a lot of money on the table you better [ __ ] make it work and it's like that's such a that's such a trap right because it's like well you left a lot of money on the table to live your life

Vinay: and there's really not much more I could do with that extra

Rory: undertone implication of make it work is can you go and make more money is kind of what you're alluding to because in many ways you've already made it work like the

Vinay: and to be clear I would love I would love to make a lot more money. Um because I find it fun and I think money is leverage.

Rory: And you can solve more meaningful and more interesting problems with more

Vinay: Um but I'm a lot less money motivated than I thought. Uh which is which is very strange. I

Rory: Well, so you have written about and and and mentioned in your blog a few times that you have a chip on your shoulder, but it sounds like you've one, you've weaponized this chip,

Vinay: and two, it does like for a lot of people with their chip, they're like, I got to go deep in therapy and figure out this chip, but it seems like you you're using yours. Do you like your chip,

Rory: dude? I mean, my chip my I guess chip is like another word for like inner demons, you know? Um I Dude, I I have no idea. I mean, there are some moments where I really [ __ ] don't like my chip, you know, like it's it is like now that I'm a lot more aware of it. And by the way, the last year or year and a half has been a lot of like self exploration. I am in therapy now.

Vinay: Um, you know, there there have been a lot of moments where I've noticed things about myself. Two psychiatrists have told me with absolute certainty. They they're like, "You are absolutely bipolar." And they're like, "You should uh go like we we know that like both of them said, I know that you're the type of person that does not want to go on medication, but I strongly suggest you

Rory: cuz it will make a a huge impact in your relationships in life."

Vinay: Obviously, my chip on the shoulder like kicked in then and I was like, "Well, [ __ ] you. This has been like so incredibly useful and I'm not going to medicate myself."

Rory: Um but yeah, like I I think that I've done a lot of inner work over the last year and a half. I'm certainly nowhere near done with it. I think it's going to be a lifelong thing,

Vinay: but I am like newly in therapy. I like did there was like a a moment where I did like four four or four and a half grams of like psilocybin tea with like a therapist shaman lady and like mourned my parents' death and like have been spending more time with my parents. So I I am doing like inner work in therapy, but I'm no longer scared of that. removing the chip. I am realizing that is like never

Rory: probably never going to be removed and I am I am leaning into it when I when I want to and I think it's like useful you

Vinay: and so if if money is perhaps not the ultimate motivation is there a point in the future like if you could if you could tick boxes and achieve a bunch of stuff right now is there a self-actualization in the future where you see yourself and you go that is enough I will have done enough at that level of accomplishment and then I can sit on a beach in internal happiness or do you think it's a drive that is just

Rory: I think that uh I already feel like me pushing is like this sounds so cheesy. I actually [ __ ] hate this answer, but I'm going to say it anyway cuz it's the it's the real answer.

Vinay: And I'll say that a lot. Like I'm very self-deprecating. You already know this. Um but like dude, I already feel like very good about my life. Like I actually feel the most [ __ ] solid in my life right now. And that's a crazy thing for people to hear because like you know when your parents hear about you living in like a factory and like leaving a bunch of money on the table like my parents have just been perpetually worried about me in some way shape or form. But I actually feel so good about my life right now. Like I I think it's like such an exciting time to be alive.

Rory: Um and pushing forward like I don't view it as like now I no longer view it even if in the moment I'm like I want more. I want more. And that's how I experience it in the moment. When all said and done and I I like reflect on my life and like kind of zoom out and like see the forest from the trees, I'm like, "Dude, this is awesome. What more could I want?" Like I I have like even if I don't feel super secure in all my money and sometimes I have like fears of losing all of it, I'm like genuinely, dude, you're just like someone who's going to [ __ ] figure it out and like you know, you have great people around you who will lift you up. And so I I'm not really like aiming to be the like relax on a beach sort of

Vinay: you know, like that just has never really resonated with me.

Rory: Yeah. It's also it's pleasure. It's not true purpose. It's Yeah.

Vinay: I love to do that. Pleasure with like friends in like constrained moments, but overall like creation is like kind of the answer for me.

Rory: I love that.

Vinay: I think my favorite Venet story uh we were at Bath House. I think it was probably 2024 and uh in the water and everyone else is yapping and yeah, we were down there with a whole bunch of founder friends.

Rory: Everyone's yapping away and you were sort of staring off into the void and

Vinay: and you turned to uh me and a bunch of the other guys and you said, "Uh, I you know guys, I'm I'm just going to fly to the Himalayas tonight and and I don't know when I'll be back

Rory: and I'm just going to go and find myself and I think I'm going to find purpose in the mountains." Then you flew out and we didn't hear from you for like six weeks.

Vinay: Walk us through what happened there,

Rory: dude. I mean, like, yeah, basically, you know, you had like kind of caught me in a period. I'd broken up with my ex and um I was on my couch like plastered. Like I basically became one with my couch for like a week and a half where, you know, the vaping thing had like picked up and I was like literally ordering vapes on Uber Eats, which I didn't even know you could do. I was ordering I was ordering vapes and like eating Domino's pizza for three square meals a day. Like for people who are like care about their health, you eat Domino's pizza once and you feel [ __ ] horrible. I mean it is like

Vinay: we call it post pizza depression.

Rory: Post pizza depression. Yeah, dude.

Vinay: You just like Dude, I literally like you feel like like for me personally, I just feel like throwing up. I'm like, "Oh god." Like my body's like, "Dude, you're doing something terrible right now." And then you like multiply that by three and I was just like in such a like low place where I was just like, "Okay, I gave up all this money. I broke up with my girlfriend." Like, "What the [ __ ] am I doing?" I was watching the Lord of the Rings TV show, which honestly is the most depressing part of all that. Horrible [ __ ] TV show.

Rory: Terrible TV show, dude.

Vinay: I say I saw it.

Rory: Don't watch it. If you like Lord of the Rings, don't watch it. But it was just like there's like a bunch of weird [ __ ] in that show. But either way, that's where I was at. And I realized I was just like, "Dude, I need to do something. Like, I need to do something. I need to break out. This can't be me." And I had this realization where I was like, "Actually, I could just fund this for the rest of my life. I could like be on this couch and just vape." And so, like, it was also one of my first moments of realizing that money is like a catalyst. It really exacerbates your vices and your virtues.

Vinay: You know what's You ever see the film Office Space?

Rory: Yeah. Yeah.

Vinay: And the guy says, "If you had Oh, if you had $2 million, what would you do?" And the guy says, "Well, I just wouldn't do anything. I'd stay at home and just chill out." And the he goes, "You don't need $2 million. Just stay at home and chill out. Look at my cousin Vinnie. He's broke. He don't do shit." Like,

Rory: and I always think about that line where I'm like, "We're working hard to be able to not do anything. You can just go do that if you want." Like,

Vinay: dude, exactly. And and you know, like I just needed to break out of this [ __ ] I was like, "This is not going to be my life." Um, and you know, one of my friends who you actually might know, David Roski,

Rory: I don't think so.

Vinay: Okay, you should definitely meet him. David is a crazy person. He like climbed K2 with like no oxygen and like he just he's been he's been climbing mountains his whole life, you know? He goes to the Himalayas and like doesn't use sherpas. And he was like he was like I was basically like David what is the I have no training and I've been eating Domino's pizza as like my main dietary s like source of fuel. I was like what what is like the hardest mountain I could climb that would not kill me

Rory: and very specific caveat.

Vinay: Yeah. And he was like he was like okay and I shouldn't have taken his [ __ ] advice cuz David is a psychopath you know like he's [ __ ] crazy dude. And like this guy goes into like cold plunges for 40 minutes straight. Like he was literally at the Russian bath house and the Russian guys were like, "Are you okay?" Like they never ask people if they're okay. You know what I mean? And like this guy's like, "Oh, you know what you should climb? You should climb Amma Delom," which is the Matterhorn of the Himalayas. It's it's a [ __ ] dude in

Rory: anything of the Himalayas is uh is pretty gnarly.

Vinay: It's crazy. And it's also more technical than Everest. Like there's a part of it called the the yellow the yellow wall or the yellow tower, I forgot. It's just like pure granite slab that you have to like climb. You have to rock climb this carrying all of your [ __ ] and you have like almost no oxygen. And so like either way I go do this thing at like this Amma Delomlam thing and I'm like flying into the valley and it's starting to get real. I'm like, "Oh, this is so beautiful." And I'm like meeting people and they're like, "Oh, what are you climbing?" And I'm like, "Amma." And they're like, "Whoa." They're like, "That's a beautiful mountain. How long have you been training?" And I was like,

Rory: showed up."

Vinay: Yeah. And they're like, "What?" And these are people who look way more in shape than me, you know? And they're like, "That's a bad idea."

Rory: And uh yeah, it was a really [ __ ] bad idea, but it was also great because it just I do think I needed that. Like I think there was like a a secret to life

Vinay: especially now I feel like with the gravity well of like convenience that is in our life.

Rory: Oh yeah. And then also like the amount

Vinay: the food is pre-hunted for us. We just have to wake up and consume.

Rory: Exactly. Which I'm not like, you know, look, I'm not going to tell people that they should go back to like, you know, hunter gatherer tribes. I'm just saying like we are in this moment of like even if you're not doing well in life, relatively extreme abundance that we are not like hardwired for. And on top of that, you add the fact that there is like a bunch of content out there, which is ironic because we're recording content right now, but hopefully this content can like inspire someone or get someone to like do something, you know, like but there's a bunch of [ __ ] out there where it's like it's just so

Vinay: And I feel like right now is it's just such an easy time to let your life fly

Rory: Yeah. you know, like you get hit with some hardship. It is such an easy time to soo in a way that is like also society endorsed

Vinay: and it's like it is such a skill to learn how to [ __ ] up your life. And I really mean that. Like if I could teach my kids, I have a nephew one thing. It's like if you think your life is [ __ ] up, [ __ ] it up because you don't like it. You don't like your life.

Rory: Change everything.

Vinay: Change it.

Rory: Yeah. Rewrite it. Like look, if you have kids, you can't do this. If you have like people who depend on you, you can't do this. Like I'm not saying like go off the wall and like abandon your responsibilities. But for most people who are watching this right now, you have a lot less to lose than you think you do.

Vinay: Like if you are not happy with your life, change something. And so I I learned that again by going to the Himalayas and like getting hypoxic and like all this [ __ ] like tripping balls like and you know thinking I was going to die almost like not doing the mountain like there's so many stories in that but I what I would say so many beautiful stories but you know what I would say is like just learning how to [ __ ] up your life the you know I met these guys at base campma base camp this was like such a magical sort of like oh god is real moment. meant for me. And like the last year and a half has really been been me like discovering God over and over again, which I know like a lot of people are not going to relate to that. I'm not going to make this like a Jesus thing or whatever. You know,

Rory: take it in any direction you want.

Vinay: For sure. I'm not going to try to make it like a God thing, but God was like an instrumental part of a lot of my journey. Like also in Hawaii. Um, but you know, like

Rory: there was this moment where I just met these guys and they were the most wild people I've ever met in my life. They're all like, you know, six foot three, six foot five, like just looks, you know, they look like they probably have like 20 times as much testosterone as I do. Like their jaws are just like perfectly square. And it's like these three dudes and they talk like I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] I'm meeting like real cavemen, you know?" And they're like coming down and like they have like their beards all scrabbly. They just like climbed Amma. And by the way, they did it nonstop.

Vinay: That's unreal.

Rory: Which is more than unreal. Like to give you an idea, there are three different camps on Amma. Most people climb it in 3 to 4 days. The these guys decided to just go up all the way to the summit with no sleep and then go all the way back down. And by the way, this was after they had told me and showed me photos of them hunting boar in Afghanistan and like feeding it to villages with like Taliban there. So, they had just gotten done with like a boar hunting trip and they're like, "Oh, you know what we should do? combo ball hunting to mountain climates there. Yeah,

Vinay: dude. And like I I I only bring up this moment because it it really reminds like it was like a solidification. It was right before I went up to went up,

Rory: but it was a solidification of like I was like, "Wow." Like our our true nature as humans is to be [ __ ] wild.

Vinay: And we have like lost that sense of primality within us. And again, I'm not like using this to justify being like a red pill piece of [ __ ] or whatever. Like I'm just saying like there is a wild part of you and like there's a lot of noise out there and if you want to like mess up your life, go to nature and do something hard is like it is as close to a silver bullet for um being in like a sort of like

Rory: I don't know like philosophical uh gravity well. I call it computer brain. When I've been inside for like two weeks straight just building and then I go to let's say like Mount Tam or something just get like pumped by sunlight for two days straight. Ped by pumped by sunlight. I love that.

Vinay: For two days straight just getting blasted by the sun. You're exercising. You're outdoors with friends. You barely see your screen for like 2 days and then you come home and you feel like like the computer is so uninteresting and you feel like a primal being.

Rory: You're back to like just like your like baseline masculine urges. And it's a real thing. And for so many people in their careers, like I think about my friends who work in private equity, they don't get to do that ever. That's not a

Vinay: dude. For sure.

Rory: They get out of the office for like three hours a week. Like it's like not a thing. And those three hours are like laundry and then shower and ring your mom and then by the way, like masculine energy like men and women can use it. Like we have these things in us, you know? I'm like

Vinay: I'm like, man, like just get out to nature, you know? Like I I think back on this moment where I took like again a lot of shrooms with with one of my buddies who I won't name on here cuz I don't know if he wants to be named for it, but we went to an Airbnb.

Rory: Uh-huh. Yeah. Elon Elon Musk. Uh yeah. We we went to an Airbnb and like we literally at the end of it were like stripped down naked. There was like this little lake behind our our the cabin. Like if you were looking you'd be like, "Oh, this is like a Brokeback Mountain moment." You know, like these guys are totally into each other. But we were just like naked. I literally thought I was a lion and I was roaring and like when flies would land on me, I would like just fall into the grass and roll instead of swatting them away and I was like grabbing the grass and like thinking about life and I was like, "Oh man, this is what it's about." You know,

Vinay: I love that. So, you come back uh you found yourself in many ways. You've refound that that masculine energy you wanted to find. You've climbed mountains, had a hypoxic experience, and you come back to Earth, and I I rang you a month later, and you were like, "Bro, I'd love to hang out, but I'm going to move to Hawaii to learn physics, and I'm not coming back until I know physics." A great statement, by the way. It was like there was so much purpose in the delivery, the drive behind that statement.

Rory: Yeah, man.

Vinay: So, why physics? Walk us through this

Rory: dude. You know, I I feel like even now I'm kind of like back to basics. There's a lot of complications in life right now. Things seem really complicated. It's like where is AI going? Where is where is industrial manufacturing going? Like where like what is job security?

Vinay: And I think a lot of times when you fear something, the best way to remove that fear is to know it. Like cuz if you can't like name the thing and know the thing, how are you going to combat the fear? And I found myself in a place where I was just like I personally do not want to do a pure software company anymore. Um like no knock against pure software companies like obviously if you are you know Chris Ola at Anthropic you're doing fine. It's a really interesting product. It's not like me making a value statement about it.

Rory: I just knew that I didn't want to do that. I was like I kind of want to do something that's like more multifaceted. I'm still very interested in technology. I don't want to leave technology. And so I found myself in this place where I was like, okay, well, you kind of have a choice that you haven't been making for a long time, which is like you want to learn how to do things in the physical world. Well, you don't even remember your physics. And so I was in, you know, I was at a I was at I I was in Ulawatu in Bali. Actually, after I had climbed the mountains, I went to to Bali. I was in Ulawatu at this really nice hostel. like very nice hostel. It's actually a hostel that like people go to for yoga and most people don't stay there because it's it's kind of pricey.

Vinay: Pretty cheap still cuz Bali is incredibly cheap.

Rory: Ulu's as a surfer.

Vinay: Dude, by the way, we should go to

Rory: I would love to go to Ulu.

Vinay: So cool.

Rory: It's very close to where I grew up

Vinay: in Perth,

Rory: right? That's true. Yeah, dude. So many Australians in Bali.

Vinay: We're taking it over. It's kind of little Australia now.

Rory: I love it, dude. I met so many Australians. They were awesome. Australians and Russians. A lot of Russians, too.

Vinay: Yeah, they do go out there. Yeah.

Rory: Yeah. Also, a lot of Australians in the

Vinay: Good to hear. Good to hear.

Rory: Either way, I love Australians. You know

Vinay: Um, but I, you know, I was, I was at this hostel and I was kind of having like a bit of a breakdown because I had just gotten done with climbing the mountain and I was like, "Okay, I did a really hard thing." And I was like, "You can't do nothing, dude." Like, there's just like this existential dread in the background. And I was kind of coming to I was still coming to terms with the fact that I had broken up with my ex. And there were just like some emotions that were coming out that uh you know like kind of catalyzed in this like not so great interaction that I that I

Rory: with her. Um and you know I'm like I don't regret much but I I regret that you know

Vinay: so if she's watching like I'm I'm really sorry. Um, but you know, I was working through some [ __ ] and I I just was so angry. There was so much anger and I didn't really know what to like do with it. And so I just started [ __ ] learning physics. I was like I was like just go to the basics. And I was like okay like I don't know what to do. What do I do? Where do I start? I was like I was like okay what's a vector? Let's go back to vector math. And then I was like, "Okay, what's linear algebra?" And then I like downloaded MIT's open courseware. And I was like, "Okay, what's force equals mass times acceleration? Oh, wait. What's calculus?" And I just started going through this. And like now I know I was probably in an extremely manic manic

Rory: which is Thank God I wasn't medicated against it, right?

Vinay: You weaponized it.

Rory: I weaponized it. And like I was just sitting there like doing physics on an iPad in a place that is like absolute paradise. There's like

Vinay: Oh, it's gorgeous.

Rory: It's gorgeous. like the the hostel just like overlooks this cliff and like people are there doing yoga. They explicitly tell you to not have iPads and devices out

Vinay: doing physics,

Rory: but you're allowed to if you stay at the hostel. And I'm staying at the hostel and I'm just there like furious. Like I'm so pissed and I'm furiously doing physics and people like what the [ __ ] And so

Vinay: furiously doing physics. I think it's a previously unsaid sentence in the English language.

Rory: Maybe. Yeah.

Vinay: Dude, I mean like I really felt like something was being channeled through me, you know? I'm like I I think I think it's God. But either way, like I was doing physics and I made so many friends cuz they all came up to me and they're like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "I'm doing physics." And they're like, "Oh, are you in school?" And I was like, "Does it look like I'm in [ __ ] school, bro? Like I'm in my 30s." They're like, "Yeah, why are you doing physics?" I was like, "I don't know." I was like, "I don't [ __ ] know." You know? And I that like kind of precipitated this thing where I was just like, "Okay, I should probably, you know, I should I should probably figure out what to do with this." Um, you know, there was a stint in between that where I did Doge,

Rory: you know. So, like I did Doge after that. When I came back to New York, I was like, "Okay, I know I want to do this physics thing, but then like, you know, my friend was like, "Hey, like you should try to do this." And then I went to I I was like crammed into the SpaceX offices in Washington DC.

Vinay: And I remember just seeing this guy Steve Davis who uh is one of Elon's right-hand right-hand people, you know, and he's he's another like type of human, you know, like you just see this guy like context switching every 5 to 10 minutes. He really takes like the concept of work on the most urgent thing in your life every single moment. like every 5 to 10 minutes he was making some like seemingly large decision and it was real. It was it was impressive but it was also strange. Um and I was like I don't want my life to be that

Rory: but I was like I think I could do more of that and really I just realized I needed to like be with my emotions and that began like the introspection.

Vinay: We'll see. But then but then like I basically decided to like combine the physics, learning the physics with like introspection and going off the grid and I was like it would just be kind of cool to be in Hawaii, a place that I love that I think is like underrated somehow like just has this energy about it that heals you know. And I went to the big island with, you know, um, some some really good friends. And, you know, for the first week we were all hanging out. And then, like, you know, for seven weeks, I went to Wio Valley, which is also known as the Valley of the Kings.

Rory: Um, and most people don't stay there. Actually, I don't I don't really think the Airbnb host was supposed to put an Airbnb up.

Vinay: And so, you know, I I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to just go learn physics in the middle of nowhere." And then when I was in Hawaii, I had so much of that anger. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to like write as a means to like get it out.

Rory: And I sat down and wrote that blog post thinking that like maybe like 10 people would read it. Most people would be like, "Shut up, you rich [ __ ] No one cares about like the problems you have that aren't even real problems." Which is totally

Vinay: Well, you almost preempted that in the article itself and self-defended yourself within the article, which I thought was very neat. like you referred to it as sort of like a zeroth world problem in many ways, you know, the the selfawareness it takes to write that and recognize the position you're writing it from. But I think that you articulated it well. I don't think the article was poorly received. I think it was received in a way that was interesting where it was like not a lot of people make a lot of money and then write something like that. People make money and disappear,

Rory: right? Which is which is by the way, if I were giving advice, I would give advice to make money and disappear. Do not do what I did. I have half of India in my DMs asking me for money, which I feel so bad. Like I'm not trying to [ __ ] on Indian people. Obviously I'm Indian. I'm very proud of being Indian. But like there are just like a lot of people who reach out to me for money and it's like it was really annoying and I'm like okay I've like normalized to like this is just going to be my life. Like when I post stuff online and I tag other people like there's a bunch of people asking them if they can like get in touch with me. And so I would recommend the approach of like not writing about the fact that you have a lot of money. My that ship has sailed for me

Vinay: remarkably. I posted a photo on Instagram with you earlier this year and someone DM' me to ask you for money.

Rory: This actually happened.

Vinay: Yeah. I could dig up the DM. And I I think I turned to you. It was like in January at the factory and I was like, "Look at this. This So this makes a lot more sense now that this is uh

Rory: Yeah. And hopefully it does seem like it's dying down, which is good because honestly since that piece, I've only wanted to like write things or put things out that are like authentic. I don't I don't want to put things out just because like I wrote this piece and it's like let's keep writing pieces. So like like it that piece was like so raw and from the heart.

Vinay: I was like, you know what? Anything I write on my personal website has to be raw. It has to be from the heart.

Rory: And if I'm going to publish it, like I don't want to publish it just for the sake of like views. Mhm.

Vinay: Um either way, like I thought that was going to get like maybe like a hundred likes on Ax. It got it has like millions and millions.

Rory: It was front page of hacker news. I was Yeah. It went ballistic.

Vinay: Yeah. And like it's also like not great to watch people like pick your life apart and be like, "Oh, like this guy like, you know," and some people were right. They're like, "This guy needs to go see a therapist." Like that. I was like eventually I was like, "Cool."

Rory: But like, you know, it's not great to like watch people talk about your life that way. Um, but you know, it was also very therapeutic. It kind of like catalyzed and pushed a lot of things in my life that needed to get pushed forward. Um, but it was very overwhelming and it was like I had had this like 4hour like I had reached out to a bunch of people cuz I was like, well, now's kind of a moment in time. I'm like so burnt out. I just want to go off the grid and learn physics. But now my phone is like nonstop blowing up. Non-stop. And it's out of love. like it's out of like like people wanting to reach out and make sure I'm not like gonna kill myself, you know? And I'm like, I'm good. Like I'm not suicidal.

Vinay: I remember texting you that week.

Rory: Yeah, dude.

Vinay: And I thank you.

Rory: Of course. Yeah.

Vinay: Love you, buddy.

Rory: I love you, too.

Vinay: But I I think that um yeah, like you know, it was all a lot of love, but it was very overwhelming. And you know, I'd gotten done with this like 4hour conversation with Bology

Rory: where he reached out and he's like, "Hey, let's talk." and he had kind of like uh pitched me on like coming out to Singapore and like working on some some stuff with him and Bali is like I mean that guy might be like manic bipol like that guy was on like 4 hours of sleep and sounded smarter than I ever sound when I'm well rested.

Vinay: People like that are incredible.

Rory: He has an incredible brain and he's right about so many things that are like multifaceted and difficult. Either way, he we had this conversation about like the state of the US. It like deeply depressed me

Vinay: and I was like I need to turn off my phone. So like I finished that conversation and like no knock against BG he was actually right about a lot of things unfortunately.

Rory: Um but I was just like I'm not in a place to receive all of this intention and like

Vinay: that was also weird because I was like it seems like a moment where I should take advantage of it but I was like I can't I I'm just not in a place. So, I went to YO Valley. I rented this Airbnb and I, you know, am driving up to the valley and my Airbnb host is like, "Hey, I'm sure you looked up YO." I didn't. And he's like, "Just so you know, you're going to have to park at the top of the valley. You can't drive in unless you have a Native Hawaiian driver's

Rory: Oh, no.

Vinay: And I was like, "Oh, shit." I was like, "Okay." I was like, "How far is that?" And he's like, "Yeah, by the way, like get groceries." He's like, "You're not getting out of this." He's like, "You're really like in the jungle." And so I like I'm scrambling to get grocer. I'm like, "Okay, I guess I'm really going off the grid." And like this is a place where like native Hawaiians do not want mainlanders there.

Rory: The Valley of the Kings is like it's a place where Hawaiian rulers and royal families like ruled all of Hawaii from there. There's like wild horses that are lineages of the royal horse like running through the fields.

Vinay: I've been there and I've seen them and I fed one a banana and I probably shouldn't have done that, but

Rory: Oh, really?

Vinay: dude. I was like scared that they were going to like bite me. Like I I couldn't I was that's magical. But it is like a magical place, right? Like it is pure. It is like a form of heaven on earth and like you just feel so connected to like creation. Um, and you know, like there's royal burial sites and like in the middle of this I'm like reading the BV Gita and I'm reading the way of kings, Brandon Sanderson,

Rory: and there's like all this kingly like, you know, royal like godly stuff going on that I didn't plan, you know, like it just kind of all came together. Um, and we're like driving into the valley and this guy's like as we're driving in we're like crossing these rivers and then like in his truck he like takes a left like into the river and is like driving up the river and then like we eventually get to the place I'm like oh I can't escape this place like this is like a

Vinay: he's like you're not living till you know physics like get in that room

Rory: dude I mean like and it was a forcing function because like being in a place off the grid for a day and then two days and all you is the content that you downloaded at MIT's open courseware and you're like doing these physics problems and you're like well I don't have anything else to do and like you're reading like like religious text

Vinay: you were focused

Rory: I was focused and like no matter how much I didn't want to do the physics or I didn't want to like read like a religious text you know I was like I have nothing else to do and so it was interesting like the the first you know the first few days I would like go on these hikes like around in my cabin and I would try to avoid the natives because I was like, "They don't want me here." Like, and I could tell like I could see people like looking at me kind of being

Vinay: "Dude, like what are you doing here?" Like I I had no idea that I was encroaching on this land. And I felt bad. I wish I could have taken it back. I was like, "Well, I already paid for this Airbnb and I'm here." And like one day I'm like walking down a trail and I see these like three dudes who are all like, you know, 6 foot, 6' one. Uh, and they're they're they're ripped. They're like carrying boulders. And I just remember like walking and I'm like I'm not going to be able to avoid these guys, you know. And so I I walk up and like they don't look very happy to see me and you know they're right in my way and I'm like what's up guys? And like they just look so angry that like you know when you're like nervous and you just start overalking.

Rory: Basically I was like I start giving them my whole life story and they're like dude what the [ __ ] They're like we did not ask for this, you know? But I was like look guys like I know that I'm not like I didn't know what this place was. I am sorry. Like, I'm not from Hawaii. I'm sorry that I'm here, but I'm here for seven weeks. Like, I'm going through what can only be described as like a full-blown crash out. And I was like, and I was like, I am here to be like respectful and I'm not going to like bother you or anybody. So, you just let me know what the rules are and like I'm down to roll with it cuz I know this is like like I'm here on borrowed time. Like, this is not this is not my land. Um, and then they softened up a little bit and they were like, and they were like, "Cool." They're like, "You want to help us carry these boulders?"

Vinay: And I was like, I was like, "Dude, I'm so [ __ ] bored." I was like, "I will do anything for human connection right now." And and so I start carrying hundreds of pounds of boulders of these guys in landscaping cuz they're landscaping like people's houses and they're working like fruit farms in the fields cuz it's all like manual labor and like it's a community, you know. Um, and basically over the course of like seven weeks, I'm reading the Bhagad Gita. I'm personally getting in touch with God in nature like in spirit and like also in integration with the community. Um, you know, I'm learning about the spirit of aloha. That's what they're teaching me, you know, like as we're like smoking a joint with these guy. Like these guys are like total stoners. And like it was just like a beautiful period. I remember leaving the valley and being like, "Wow, I am like reset in a way that was so there was just like a compendium of things that I could not have like manufactured, you

Rory: And I think this is like it's so like going back to that like you should really [ __ ] up your life.

Vinay: I think people severely underestimate how magical the world can really be. And like when you get into this place where you're just like always fearful, if you can afford to do it. If you can afford to do it, like that Airbnb I rented was like not very expensive.

Rory: It was not very expensive. Obviously

Vinay: even accessible. Yeah.

Rory: Yeah. I mean actually the hardest part is getting there. Um but like truth be told of people who are like you know spending like money on all these subscription services or you know they do food delivery and stuff like yes you have to save like you you but you can have some like really magical experiences in the world and it was one of those moments that just like reminded me of that

Vinay: and then it also like unfortunately created this juxiposition with

Rory: where I see a lot of like tech in particular right now

Vinay: where I'm like it just kind of feels like the magic has left a little bit And like everybody feels it, but they don't really want to say it. And I'm I'm I'm not trying to project on everybody. There's a lot of really cool stuff happening in technology right now. But like I don't know, like I I just like I think that some of the magic of creating things that people really love. Like it's been this race to like not become part of the permanent underclass and like to rage bait people. And like there's there's parts of like tech online at least I'll caveat that I'm like man like I really don't like this you know and I'm not trying to be negative. I'm just trying to say like the world is magic. Like we got to look forward to [ __ ] man. Like

Rory: let's make it magic again. And so

Vinay: find optimism again.

Rory: Unfortunately I think that I will not be able to leave technology until I play some part in that. Like I just feel a personal responsibility where I'm like okay if I can like positively impact the community in some way that would be great. I don't know what that looks like. It's not like building a big, you know, world model or like building like a huge infrastructure company. I'm like a much more whimsical person than that. I just love building products that people like [ __ ] love to use. And so like now I'm like hacking on a a drone that's going to water my indoor house

Vinay: you know, which is like technically difficult actually, but it's also like very not serious. And so like that's kind of my sweet spot. Um, but I I want to see a lot more like love and like fun in technology. And like I'm not saying there aren't companies that don't showcase that. Like I think Madic Vacuum is one of those companies that clearly has some love put into it. Um, Neo from 1X and all the memes of like Neo sleeping with your wife or whatever. Like I think that's hilarious. You know, like Digit from Agility Robotics. Uh, Sunday Sunday Robotics, the little cap that they have. I love that. Like there's a lot of magic still, but I think it's getting drowned out by like honestly just like a lot of [ __ ] Yeah. Like that I don't like to see.

Rory: Yeah. You know, I feel that.

Vinay: I do want to drill into sort of like the learnings from that and and what's

Rory: Whoops. And what's happening moving forward. Um but I'd like to take one step back first and just go one one chapter prior. Trump wins the election in 2024.

Vinay: Doge becomes a big thing. It gets a lot of national attention. And you know, ironically, I think a lot of administrations have had some form of Doge, but this particular form of Doge got a lot of national attention and you were invited to come and take part in it and you said yes.

Rory: How did that come about? And and tell us if you can talk about it, anything that's not confidential. What were some of the things you learned about the inner workings of the government?

Vinay: Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a lot I can talk about. I also want to caveat and not overplay my hand here. Like I'm not trying to like construct this image. Like I was like instrumental in Doge in the sense that like I helped recruit a lot of people onto the team. That's probably my greatest contribution. I was there for 5 weeks.

Rory: But you have to understand like when you're working on stuff like this, people are working around the [ __ ] clock. It is like it is something different, you know? Um and so you get a lot done in 5 weeks. But I also was not

Vinay: when Trump took office. M

Rory: so like I missed out on a lot and I've talked to a lot of people from Doge and so I know a lot of [ __ ] has happened since I was there. Like most of it happened since I was there. In fact, all of it happened.

Vinay: Um and so I just want to caveat by saying that cuz I don't want to overplay the hand of like I was like Doge I was like like Doge would have like happened with or without me basically. And by the way, I don't even think it's that like a a badge of honor to have Doge. Like I think most people I know who are like associate with dojo like kind of trying to like not overplay it in general. I'm happy to talk about it. You know I think that the major the major product of the US on a global scale is the US dollar

Rory: and I think it is um

Vinay: I think that product there is less trust in that product now more than ever especially with some of the volatility of the geopolitical situation. I think there are like strategies at play here that I am not privy to or smart enough to even understand. Um, but I went into Doge with that with that outlook of like I love this country. I think that borders exist for a reason. I think that like when you cross a border, that's where good and bad ideas begin and end.

Rory: For a good reason, you know, and like I so I love this country. I want to see it continue to prosper. and if it's going to prosper, the US dollar has to mean something because that is like a huge part of our current geopolitical stability. Um, and so I went into Doge with that outlook. You know, it wasn't like a [ __ ] Camala, like you know, I hate libtards, even though like you know, people who are hyper liberal are annoying. So are people who are hyper conservative. [ __ ] annoying to me. But I I I think that like, you know, I didn't go in with it with like a purely political view. I just like had come back from Bali and one of my buddies was like, "Yo, Vene, they're like looking for people and like you're pretty smart. Like you you can at least run operations." I was like, "I know nothing about politics, you know." And he's like, "Yeah, but it looks like they're looking for people who can just like

Vinay: figure things out." And so, you know, when I joined it was like really

Rory: just people who can get [ __ ] done. I there will always be a need in the market for people who can just get [ __ ] done. And you know people who are there on a mission. I learned the importance of like when a bunch of people have an undeniable mission. All the stuff that people usually like complain about like oh like this my boss like told me this thing in a way that I didn't really like. No one gives a [ __ ] about that anymore. It's like it's truly like you know I could like give someone feedback and they're like I got it. Or they could give me feedback. I'm like I understand because like every second you're just working so hard. And you kind of get a sense for this

Vinay: when you're at a startup. But I had never experienced anything where like there was this drive that was like a national drive behind everybody. Um I had never experienced that sense of purpose before and I'm incredibly grateful I got to

Rory: uh you know like we had to like to tell you the truth you know if the inner workings of the government it doesn't take a genius to know it's a it's a [ __ ] [ __ ] show you know like clearly like it's not really secret. I mean, you can literally look on Twitter and it's like, which I refuse to call X, by the way. I [ __ ] hate the name X. You can look on Twitter and like you see these politicians like reaming each other publicly and it's like, what the [ __ ] happened to this country, man?

Vinay: You know, it's a [ __ ] show. And so,

Rory: yeah, I mean, there's not really much else to say. Like, yes, when you employ 3 million people, it's going to be extremely inefficient. There are going to be a bunch of people who are just like thieftum building and like all this stuff. Um, you know, and so if you want my views on where Doge has gone, clearly a a failure. Clearly a failure. I don't think anyone could make the case that it s we succeeded in anything that we were trying to do.

Vinay: Um, I've had conversations with people who have like lost their funding for perfectly legitimate things and I feel embarrassed. It's an embarrassing thing to have to be like, I worked on this and I'm really sorry about that. um you know, even for the 5 weeks that I'm there. I'm sorry about that.

Rory: Uh and then there are people who are pissed off about losing funding for things that I think are [ __ ] [ __ ] And I'm like, but they're in such an emotional place. I'm like, I can't like engage in this. So, I just say sorry and move on because I'm like, I'm not going to get through to you. But I'm like, you're kind of part of the problem. And so, I I think that it's like there's like a a complicated mix of emotions for the Doge thing. I'm really happy I got to experience it. maybe I'll be able to make more sense of where it purposefully fits into my life in the future. I think one thing is just like a clarity of like how how important a strong vision is and mission like just really how important that is and like I can carry that through to whatever I do in the future whether it's a company or like a nonprofit or like maybe there are like things I want to do with like you know studies on like uh getting sober off like hard drugs like whatever I do a clear vision is like so important. clear prioritization like things that seem obtainable but hard, you know, like

Vinay: I think hopefully that's what I take away from it. Um

Rory: I think it is like disillusioned me to power dynamics. I'm no longer like really interested in becoming like powerful for the sake of being powerful. I think that's such a trap. It's such a [ __ ] waste of your life. Like it really is cuz like everybody's going to like play these power games and it's like if you are just reaching for power for power it's like I I feel so sorry for you and I hope you make it out of

Vinay: cuz like when you look at some of the stuff from the top you're like

Rory: I don't want my life to be that way you know like some people do. Good for them.

Vinay: I don't want it to be my life. Like that seems that seems really miserable. So complicated. I don't know if that answers like all of the things about Doge, but there's a lot going on there, but I'm still unpacking. Yeah.

Rory: So, Peter Teal has publicly said that nicotine raises your IQ by about 10

Vinay: And we cut to kind of the modern day. You've moved to San Francisco. You're working at this company called Spectre basically in order to learn mech

Rory: And uh I believe you've been doing live one you've been living in a tent and doing up to 60 milligs of zin per day.

Vinay: What does life look like right now? That's a lot of Zen. 60 milligrams of Zin per day.

Rory: Yeah. I mean to give people a sense of what 60 mil 60 milligs of Zins per day, you have a problem.

Vinay: Like this is not what Peter Teal is talking about. You know what I mean? Like 60 milligs of Zins per day, you are running from something. You know what I mean? Which I was. And just to give you like some background, like basically after the Hawaii thing, you know, I had like covered a lot of ground in uh electrical, like on my basics of electrical and mechanics for physics. And I was looking for an internship cuz I was like in Discord groups with like 19 or like 17 year olds, not 19-year-olds, 16, 17 year olds who were studying for the AP physics exam. And I asked a 16-year-old who is much smarter than me and honestly wiser than me, which is crazy. But I asked him what he would do if he was in my shoes and I like kind of explained who I was. I was like, "Please don't call catch a predator. Like I'm just here to learn physics." And he's like, he's like, "All right, Unk." He was like, "If you know like what I'm going to do is I'm going to go to school and then I'm going to get an internship and I'm going to get a job." And he's like, "If you can get an internship, you should just go do that." And I was like, "That's great advice." I was like, "This is the best advice I've heard from anybody." And I've been like asking, you know, founders of like multi-billion dollar companies. you're giving me the best advice. And so I went and I I looked around for an internship. I hit up this guy, Xerxes, who I had met a year prior.

Rory: Great name.

Vinay: Great name, by the way. Like Xerxes

Rory: is uh someone I deeply respect. I think you should have him on the podcast if you can get him.

Vinay: Let's go get him.

Rory: But he loves to be under the radar

Vinay: and it is such a like respectable part of who Xerxes is. Xerxes is like somebody I just deeply respect. He he has like a mastery of embedded programming and electrical engineering and mechanical engineering. Like worked as a mechanic mechanic, worked with like the McLaren McLaren indie team when he was like a teenager. Like was doing like a was a chief principal architect of the drone technology at Andre when he was like 23.

Rory: This guy is like insanely smart. Like I know that I am not as smart as Xerxes, you know, and he's very charismatic.

Vinay: He's like extremely funny and he's also wild. Like he's a wild person. And so I would highly recommend having Siris on the podcast if we can get him. My strong suspicion is he's going to say I don't want to be online. Like he doesn't have any social media and it's really respectable. I would like he should have social media. Like this is a guy that's actually like very interesting. But to give you an idea, like I hit them up and we came to this agreement where

Rory: I would help Spectre and I can't talk about what they do because they're in stealth and they actually want to keep it stealth. Um, but they're doing some very cool stuff. I have hired two of my smartest friends onto the team, including John, who you met last night,

Vinay: who was like one of the best sales people I've ever known. Um, but you know, Xerxes was basically like, look, like if you're looking for an internship, I'm down to set you up with it. we need a lot of help on our software platform. Can you come on and help us with the software? I was like, for sure. And like our understanding was that it was going to be like a few weeks and then like the platform team would be in a good place. And me and Xerxes both have this problem where we severely underestimate how much work something will take, which is great, you know, but like so like in some ways we would like have a positive feedback loop that was actually not so great for other people on the team. like you know like basically I was like I'm going to go in do software for like 3 weeks roll off of the team uh and you know I joined this team that is just so incredibly stacked but man their software platform was a [ __ ] mess like they had these two contractors on it that dude I have no idea how they made the technology decisions that they made but they were horrible. I was like at one point like gallivanting around Europe like going to two of my best friends weddings. Um, and you know, one day I wake up in Spain and like it's like a beautiful day and like you know, I just remember opening up my laptop and the platform's down again and I look at like the code commits and like one of the engineers who was like supposed to be a great contractor had like rewritten all of the API renamed all the API endpoints without updating any of the client code.

Rory: Which is like for anybody who

Vinay: you meant to do V1 V2. Yeah. And you know, I was like, "Why did you do this?" You know, and so like I hop on a call with them. I pissed them off because I have like extreme entitlement from the Loom days, you know, that I'm still working through at this point. I'm like, "Guys, like what the [ __ ] is this?" You know, like I hop on a call with them. They're pissed. They're like, "What do you even do here?" And I'm like, "I'm an intern." And they're like, "What the fuck?" And so like there's this crazy moment where I'm like giving performance feedback to like these these contractors who had never seen me before. And they're like, "Why is the intern giving us feedback?" And like in very typical fashion in my life, unfortunately, I I do create a lot of drama and chaos sometimes, but I just get so pissed at incompetence and like that's how Spectre started. And for like 3 months, I was like I was like, "Okay, you guys are going to have to like let go of these contractors. We're going to have to like hire a real team in who knows their shit." And so like this like two three week period turned into three months of like very intense software work like building the whole platform. It was really fun because the people at Spectre are incredibly stacked.

Rory: Like if I want to learn about radio frequency, the guy who worked on the phased array antenna at Starlink is like behind me. And then like if I want to learn about, you know, guidance and navigation, the guy who like did all the guid ballistics guidance and navigation for Androl is like to my left and everybody's popping z. Okay. Like

Vinay: San Francisco is still like the city. It's I mean like there there's a lot of like great talented people all over now. I do think it's more uh dispersed,

Rory: but yeah, this is like a very stacked team. Like the Spectre team is very stacked. Like people don't realize it until they come. But like it truly is. Like I left Doge thinking I was never going to work with a smarter group of individuals and then I worked at Spectre and I'm like whoa

Vinay: whoa, you know. So this is uh just a stepping stone perhaps into your next chapter. It feels like you're in kind of I would call it a liinal space where you're learning again. You're back to fundamentals. Like there's nothing more bedrock than physics realistically.

Rory: And so can you give us a hint like what is chapter 2 because it feels like it's about to begin.

Vinay: Yeah. You know I I um

Rory: I don't exactly know. I think I'm very interested in robotics. I'm still interested in robotics. Like I've tried to get rid of my interest in robotics cuz I'm like why would I spend my time just giving like laptops arms and legs?

Vinay: But like it's really cool. It's really [ __ ] sick. Like there's so much we can do in the physical world. And I just think about like okay we have APIs for like Uber vehicles. Like when we have APIs for doing things in the real world like build me a Dyson sphere, build me like and I really see this happening. Like I really see that it's going to go there and it's such an interesting moment where nobody nobody solved

Rory: like no matter how much other people like shill their companies. It's like it's actually like largely unsolved. I'm in these Twitter groups with like the best roboticists in the world.

Vinay: Well, I do remember see you know we can Chad GBT recently solved an unsolvable theorem which was published and now everyone's going wow it's actually like really starting to get into a place where it can it can do like hardcore PhD level mathematics proofs. But we still can't fold t-shirts with robots.

Rory: It feels like that we're at the advent of of robotics. It's the dawn.

Vinay: I think that we're in this, you know, Andre Carpathy had this talk where he talked about how we're in an augmentation chapter

Rory: of artificial intelligence, which which makes a lot of sense to me. Like you're not completely relying on agents to code up your site. You have to like have oversight, otherwise your thing turns into AI slop and it becomes really unreliable. Mhm.

Vinay: You're not completely allowing the robotics to do everything. There's going to be some augmentation with like okay we can only do these tests and then everything else has to be teley

Rory: You can't completely have uh chat GBT or you know Mythos solve you know hard PhD level proofs. It needs to be guided by somebody. I think it's it's a mistake

Vinay: to look at that and say well because of that what have we really created here? we haven't created anything.

Rory: Like we are are in a crazy time where things are moving so fast

Vinay: and I think that if that's your viewpoint like it's a it's either cope or it's you like truly just not wanting to look at it

Rory: you know and so yeah like folding laundry is like hard but we're seeing it happen now like it's crazy dude and I'm really excited about robotics. Like I said I'm working on a drone that's going to water my house plants. I guess it could be like kind of like a Roomba for the sky. I don't really know. Like it's not It's not a serious project, but by the way, like

Vinay: but it's something that is very

Rory: and needs to happen and I'm away from New York right now and my plants are not being watered and it be fantastic.

Vinay: And how many people don't have indoor plants, dude? Like the amount of mental health benefit I get from my place looking like Rainforest Cafe. If you don't know what Rainforest Cafe is, it's like this cheesy place in malls that like had like this fake animatronic alligator and like all this stuff. But the amount of mental health benefit I get from having plants in my place is

Rory: Oh yeah.

Vinay: And I know people It's not a cost problem. It's a problem. Like it's not like that plants are too expensive for like a certain cohort of the market. It's that the cognitive overhead of like, okay, I need to water these plants this way. It's getting too much sunlight. Um you know, like I need to like pull my pots into my kitchen because I don't have the right pots. like like if you can automate all of that away, I think you can actually expand the market. And actually, funny enough, I do think that a pretty big robotics company can be built out of

Rory: I I believe that.

Vinay: I think God has a sense of humor.

Rory: I think with robotics, it's it's sort of like there are all these just very fundamental day-to-day tasks that we just quickly solve. Put the dishes from the dishwasher back on the shelves.

Vinay: Get my clothes folded and put into the correct shelves. And, you know, a thing that can take it from the laundry and

Rory: put it on a hanger and put it up. Amazing. Amazing. Right. Watering plants. Fantastic. Mop the floors. We have those little robots that go around. None of them mop. They all do the

Vinay: Do the mopping as well. Like 100%.

Rory: It's so many lowhanging fruit out there for early roboticists that need to be taken down in the next 5 years.

Vinay: Dude, for sure. And it doesn't have to be the sexiest thing. I think that actually there's a lot of room to do things that are not sexy and people are only focused on sexy things. Um this is not like as of right now the thing I'm describing is a project and you know I am looking for maybe like one person in deep learning and like one person in mechatronics can do or like maybe two people one person one p one person on mechanical one person on electrical and embedded I'm looking for like maybe two or three people that would want to hack on this with me. So, if you're in the bay or even if you're not in the bay and you're a student, um I will pay to like house you and put you up in like a relatively nice place and like fund this whole project and at the end of this you'll be able to say that you worked with me and if you're willing to work a lot just for the experience and we have no idea where this is going to go, but also like if it works out like I'll give you equity if we turn it into a company. That's kind of where I'm at. I'm not looking for like serious co-founders. I'm actually looking for people who have a bit of time on their hands. So, right now, I'm actually looking to hire two to three interns.

Rory: So, if anybody's like watching this,

Vinay: how should people contact you?

Rory: Uh, they can contact me on my on my Instagram or my X uh VHMT.

Vinay: I'll link it all on the channel.

Rory: My my Twitter. I made the mistake of calling it X. On my Twitter, you can DM me. Um, if you DM me, just send me like either a loom or send me like a resume. like you you should be somebody that is like ideally somewhere in the US like it's kind of hard to employ like I'm not going to give you health benefits you know like this is a thing where like if you have no other options I want to work with you I'm actually not like like and by the way I think you can find great people who are like desperate like I actually think like I look at how Spectre hired they hired rock stars you know the fact that I was an intern is like [ __ ] crazy like that is a rockar

Vinay: stop and I you're a rockstar.

Rory: Probably not. But like, you know, I'm just stumbling through life and like I would say that like I'm looking for people who just have a lot of agency and are willing to work a lot and are there to just learn cuz that's really like

Vinay: what I view is like when I get out of this, I'll know more about the robotic stack. I'll know more about like what it takes to like custom make certain components. I'm learning how drones even work. Like there's some like custom parts that we'll have to make for the drone for the onboard water system. Like do we do an onboard water basin or do we have it carry a hose? Like there's a bunch of weird [ __ ] that we could do.

Rory: Um and so it's actually like a deviously interesting and complicated problem. And also like getting a data set of plants is like something that doesn't really ex like so there is like a data problem. It's Yeah. And so like for someone who's learning to actually just like trying to learn as much as possible,

Vinay: this is really interesting and I work very hard.

Rory: And so like if someone is interested in just like [ __ ] learning a lot and then having a story at the end of the summer, uh, reach out to me. Like I would love to pay for you to be here.

Vinay: Love this.

Rory: Um, I'm not going to be able to pay you like what you know, Anthropic or OpenAI would. So you know, if you have no other options, like just come come work with me. I'll make sure you're fed inspiring cold.

Vinay: Yeah, I'll make sure you're fed. I'll make sure that you meet a lot of really [ __ ] cool people because I am meeting cool people. Like we're friends. The fact that they could meet somebody like you is a huge advantage, you know? Like my network is stacked. So like that's another advantage. Like there are a lot of like weird advantages with this.

Rory: And they could end up being an amazing co-founder. They could

Vinay: exactly see how it goes.

Rory: I'm not tied to like having co-founders that are like, you know, older and more mature. Like I don't care about that. like that drive.

Vinay: The drive, that dog in them, you know, and so like I'm looking for people who like I don't care like I don't care if you're a woman, if you're a man, I don't care if you know you're a furry. Like I don't give a [ __ ] Like if you're just like preferred, in fact,

Rory: furry preferred. If you are just like a stacked person that hasn't been given a chance and you know you want to prove yourself like and you just want to [ __ ] learn, like let's get after it. Like I'll hire you. I'll fly you out. There's like no company. um let's just [ __ ] do it. So that's kind of a pitch on that. Um

Vinay: how we even got here, you know, like I don't know, man. Like I was like, like I said, 60 milligrams of Zins, like learning CAD, learning Ultium, like spinning PCBs, uh you know, dating while living in a tent, not being able to bring girls back

Rory: What's it like dating? Cuz dating, it's often said, you know, dating as a man in San Francisco is quite difficult. What is it like dating as a man in San Francisco while living in a tent,

Vinay: dude? I mean, like crazy. Crazy, dude.

Rory: Was there ever a I'm on a great date, I want to bring them back. And you're like, at what point do you bring it up? By the way, I live in a tent.

Vinay: Dude, I mean, like, also, you know, when you're on 60 milligrams of Zins and barely getting any sleep. First of all, going on a date like that is a choice. And the second thing is like, you know, I was just in a weird [ __ ] head space. So, like I don't think my dating experience is like relatable at all. Also, like I have a blog post online that talks about being rich and depressed. And so, like there's a there's a lot of like undesirable inbound from that, by the way. Like, but I was in a space where I wasn't really taking dating seriously. I was like, look, like I know I'm not looking for something longterm. I thought I was, but I actually wasn't ready for it. Mhm.

Rory: Um, and you know, like I I I remember this moment where I like, and by the way, like that got really dark. Like I feel like I actually like like going through that kind of hurt some people

Vinay: you know, like it's not like I ever promised people that I was like going to like marry them or whatever. But like

Rory: it was also like feelings get caught. We don't need to go through that. But basically, I went through this phase where yeah, like once I went on a date with a girl and we went to like an amazing concert and we had a great time and she was like, "Yeah, so you know, I live with like four people." And she was trying to hint at like, "What is your

Vinay: And I was like, "Well, I have an apartment, but there's no furniture." And then she she's like still hinting at it. I was like, "Oh." Like I was so audited I didn't even realize what was happening. And I was like, "Under no circumstances can we go back to where I'm actually living." And I like show her I show her this photo of like the tent and there's like another guy sleeping on a bunk bed next to the tent. And there's like canisters of

Rory: It's a nice tent though.

Vinay: It's literally canisters of Zins like right Zims and actually Yerba Mates like right at the bed. I was like popping Zins before going to sleep, you know? Like I was not in a mentally healthy

Rory: It's unreal.

Vinay: I was not in a mentally healthy place. So, like I don't really that's not very representative of dating. You know what I mean? Like

Rory: but I had to go through that period to

Vinay: honestly like get it out of my system. Kind of as cliche as it sounds, try to do as little damage as possible. I think like dating right now is like so [ __ ] up. Like honestly like there's so many choices and people aren't committing to anything and like

Rory: it's actually like very harmful, you know? Like most people just want

Vinay: a connection with a person that they can rely on.

Rory: Yeah. and then they don't get it and then like there is a tendency to like want to protect yourself then and so you adapt to the game

Vinay: right and then like I think a lot of like not wanting to get taken advantage of that is kind of the energy of dating for a lot of people and you get like this red pill stuff that's like extremely toxic you get this like hyper you know girl like girl boss [ __ ] that I think is like honestly really harmful if that's not who you really are like we we are constructing these walls around us that don't allow us to truly connect with people and we are lowering our standards of emotional availability. And it's actually like very damaging. Like it like

Rory: I I am like honestly like kind of like regretful and shameful. It's so funny. This is the second regret I brought up.

Vinay: Up until this last two years, I would say I wasn't like reg I didn't regret anything. I was like, well, it's who I am now and I love who I am. Like I really am regretful of like hurting people while in this period and before because it's like it's like it's [ __ ] up. Like you're like there's people who are like really trying to find love and you get hurt and then you hurt somebody else and it's like the trauma gets passed on.

Rory: Dating does bring out the worst in people. The best and the worst.

Vinay: The best and the worst. And like now that like dude like I I found this girl who I'm so happy about and I'm so excited about and she's so sweet and like I had to go through this phase to like get rid of it, you know? And like

Rory: I'm so excited to be dating her and even if it doesn't work out, I'm just so grateful to have known her.

Vinay: Like there's so much love in in our relationship like where

Rory: like we are genuinely just trying to understand each other and make each other feel better. Um, and there's so many alarm bells in my head that are going off of like, oh, you're going to get taken advantage of. You're going to look weak for saying this. Like all this [ __ ] that I've like built up and I really just sincerely hope we can remove all this red pill and like hyper like [ __ ] men [ __ ] because it's like so destructive. Like not a good life philosophy to hate half of the world.

Vinay: No, it's not

Rory: terrible life. Not going to make you happy, you know?

Vinay: What is one strange reality of dating as a multi-millionaire that you wish people

Rory: Like the core problems of selfworth. you know, like you end up having to go through this thing. Like a lot of people who want to be rich are doing it because they want better dating prospects and they're deeply insecure

Vinay: and I I am in that camp, you know, like I wanted to get money to get laid,

Rory: you know, and like I think it's like very like there are other reasons why I wanted money. There were other reasons like I love building. like there are things that are like genuinely thankfully I wasn't just that you know

Vinay: um a lot of founder friends like they wanted to they were like losers

Rory: and they wanted to not be losers and they're like the way that I'm going to have more selfworth is by uh getting a thing out in the external world and that will give me more selfworth and it's like once you make that money and status especially the people who really play that hand especially the people who are like constantly at like zero bond and like just putting on the show

Vinay: they dude like so not all of them not all of them but a lot of them are deeply deeply insecure

Rory: um and money doesn't fix that [ __ ] so like the thing I would say is like money doesn't fix it certainly increases your

Vinay: I'm not going to lie and say like being rich as a man does not increase your prospects it does but the weird reality is I needed to get to a place where I was like okay this person that I am with is not there is no evidence in your life that has shown that they are with you just because of your money

Rory: or just because of this that is like a reality that I constructed for myself and I am like projecting it on them and the more I like give into okay this person is only with me because of my money like the less of a chance I have to like have a real connection with someone so it's this weird thing where like love is like love truly always wins like that cliche saying it truly always wins And in order to do it, you have to be willing to get taken advantage of.

Vinay: And so I would say that like you don't need to gain money to learn this lesson. I did.

Rory: Um I would be really happy if like I had a son and he didn't have to learn this lesson this way. Some people just have to learn the lessons the way they were going to learn them. That

Vinay: was a very good answer by the way. Very good answer. You get acquired by

Rory: $975 million US.

Vinay: You're only there for how long?

Rory: 6 months.

Vinay: 6 months. And you walk away. You walk away from the earnout leaving 65 million US on the table personally just for you.

Rory: Tell me about the conversation that you had with Atlassian. Like how did that go? How did they take the news that you were already leaving? Sorry, I want to rephrase it. How did they take the news that you were already out?

Vinay: I think uh you know honestly part of this is I don't know because Joe, my co-founder, God bless his soul. I love Joe. He is a brother to me. You know, I can't imagine the amount of [ __ ] Joe has had to deal with just with me being such a volatile person. Like in general, you know, in general, like Joe like often says, "One of my greatest accomplishments was like keeping you at loom." And he's like, and Joe like honestly like underells how much value that guy that guy's an amazing human.

Rory: the answer is I don't know fully because I'm sure Joe dealt with a bunch of [ __ ] in the background of like, oh man, like one of the co-founders is leaving so soon. It's like how do I retain my team? How do I like I'm sure all those questions happened. My sense and I don't know this. Atlassian is an incredible place to work.

Vinay: Australian company. Shout outs

Rory: dude. I mean like good good people. Like truly good people.

Vinay: Um it's like one of the few companies that doesn't have to like use the Google slogan of like don't be evil. Like they are actually not evil.

Rory: That's good.

Vinay: Um which is great. But, you know, my sense is like I didn't really like yes, I know Mike and Scott. Yes, I know like the executive team there, but we had only known each other for like 5 months in a working relationship.

Rory: And I'm sure if I was in Mike and Scott's shoes or in in an exec shoes, I'm sure I would be thinking, "Wow, that's a lot of equity to get back to like give to other people. Thank God cuz I'm an expensive employee."

Vinay: Yeah, that's the truth.

Rory: How long was the earnout period? Uh there was one period that was three years and there was one that was four.

Vinay: Both of them had no cliff. So I was already earning.

Rory: You were already earning. Okay.

Vinay: But you know like I really I I think part of this was that honestly my manager Tanya is so sweet. You know she was such a sweet person. Like there was so many interesting like she was like talking to me about like payraises and stuff like in our first meeting and I like shared my screen and showed her like my signing bonus and I was like Tanya I was like let's just like avoid all of the promo talks. I was like I have no I I have no desire.

Rory: You don't need a promotion.

Vinay: I have no desire to like get promoted. I have no desire. I was like I'm here to do great work at Loom. And I truly thought that before I was like oh I'm not made to like play politics you know. But because of that, I had this like really great relationship with her where she can actually be honest with me.

Rory: And I was like, why don't you just tell me what I'm doing wrong and we like make it really easy and then we like fabricate my like,

Vinay: you know, cuz you have like a ton of reports like you don't need another person to manage. And so I actually had a great relationship with her. I miss

Rory: yeah, it was it was the way they took it was probably multifaceted in ways that I don't even know, but

Vinay: I would assume there wasn't like too many hurt feelings. Like I have nothing but great things to say about like the leadership team there. Honestly, no matter how much other people [ __ ] on them, they're good people.

Rory: If you were speaking to someone who's new to the concept of being a founder or they've only just started building or they've even just been thinking about it, they haven't even started yet.

Vinay: What's the first thing they should go and do Monday morning? if they've been thinking about being a founder. I mean, there's the, you know, there's there's that phrase, I don't know if it's from Russell Brand or who it's from, but it's like the hardest part of quitting being a drug addict is to make the decision.

Rory: It's actually not the withdrawal. It's not all of it. So being a founder, I mean for one, I will say right now being a founder for many people seems less risky than taking a

Vinay: Interesting. Yeah.

Rory: You know, if you're at these big companies, you're being forced to manage 15 people and you're being ground to the bone and you don't know when you're going to be fired. Meta is like releasing software that like tracks their employees.

Vinay: Yeah, I saw that. Like this is kind of what I mean by like it just feels like we're being less human. There's less love in tech. And so the first thing is like I think the landscape has shifted. Like honestly when I see the like I made the hard decision to be a founder story. I'm like it feels very out of touch. I don't know if you feel that way. Like it feels like a great time to be a founder

Rory: for a lot of people. Not for everybody.

Vinay: It is really [ __ ] hard no matter what. Like to do something of value that people will pay for is really difficult. And so the first step is to make the decision. I actually think the decision is more of a no-brainer today than it ever has been. Um, and then the second the second choice is to just do the thing. Like a thing that frustrates me to no end is people telling me, "Hey, can we hop on a call?"

Rory: It's like, "Just give me the [ __ ]

Vinay: Like call me. Don't waste my time. Like text me what you want to say. Like yes, we can hop on a call. Like when it comes to business, it's like the number one advantage is speed and decisiveness. Like you have to make good decisions, but you're not going to make good decisions without taking action and

Rory: So you might as well just take the [ __ ] decision as soon as possible and then like just trust that you're going to be bad at making decisions. So fail. And so like the next thing you should do on Monday, like it's Saturday, dog. The [ __ ] are you doing? It's like Monday

Vinay: the best answer so far. Like just like [ __ ] like lock in. Honestly, I'm hearing this and I'm supposed to go to this party in Kalisoga. I'm going to go there for an hour and just come back to the city. Just say happy birthday to my friend and go back because Yeah. Like the answer is to just like constantly like, okay, I need to get a product in people's hands.

Rory: Do that as fast as possible.

Vinay: Um because the longer you don't do that, the more angst you have about like being a fake because you're just a phony.

Rory: And so answer,

Vinay: it's the only right answer. So like there is no there is no other answer unfortunately. And I'm even like learning to unlearn some of the stuff I kind of like picked up over the last year and a half. Like I've always had a bias for action but like even now

Rory: with like you know working on this project it's like

Vinay: just like do the next thing that is the most important thing as fast as

Rory: That's so good.

Vinay: So you're coming back on this show in a year's time. What's one thing that you need to be true about the world in one year? I would love to. Yeah.

Rory: Uh, what's one thing that will be true about the world in a year that isn't true right now?

Vinay: One thing that will be true about the world in a year that is not true right now. Man, that's such a hard question.

Rory: I feel like that might be the hardest question you've asked me because

Vinay: it's so hard to think in years. I almost want to give you the non-answer of like

Rory: it's not even worth it right now to think in years.

Vinay: Love that. It's moving too fast.

Rory: I don't I don't think it's worth it. Like I I think that the the number one problem is like if the number one problem in general is agency and part of being a high agency person and I'm taking this from high agency.com I think it's George Mack. I might be I miss I might be messing up his name but incredible like piece of blog post literature where he talks about the concept of being a high agency person and like you know the to define it kind of roughly it's like if you were stuck in a Serbian prison like who is the top person you would call to get them to get you out of there

Vinay: and then like you know to break it down to an atomic piece it's like you kind of sit at the intersection of this three-legged stool

Rory: where like one thing is like clear The second is like a bias for action and the third is to be disagreeable. Like if you sit at the intersection of these three things like the bias for action is the thing that I think a lot of people suffer from and you know there's a lot of structural reasons for that especially in today's day and age. So easy to just consume your life away. M

Vinay: um so if the if the answer to like doing most things in life but especially you know like doing anything in a in a period where there's like a lot moving right now if the answer is to like act you should do whatever gets you to act as fast as possible and so this is like a really way of saying like I think that like that to answer your question of like what will be true in a year I think it's actually like it's a really hard question it's a really good question for previous time periods.

Rory: I think for most people watching it's the wrong question.

Vinay: The question should really be what do you want to do? Because right now like there's like I took this philosophy course recently where the professor was like talking about how we're in this moment of the broadening present where you know there's so much technological change. There's so many things happening. You're inundated with so much of the past through your feed that you don't really know what to do.

Rory: There's no real narrative structure. And we were reading this book called The Man Without Qualities. And you know this main character, he was struggling with this idea of like I've reached some success. It was actually so applicable to my life. I've reached some success and I just don't want to keep becoming more successful cuz I don't know if like what I have achieved so far is something that is like really me or is it these qualities that I already possessed and the qualities tend to lump together

Vinay: and like it's because of them and I really have no free will. I think a lot of people actually feel like that right now. I think a lot of people feel like I want to look to the past for answers. I want to look to the future, but like it's hard to see. And so, like, if you're in this kind of like compendium of like there's a lot going on, it's probably not useful to think about the future in a year, it's actually more useful to think about, okay, the board is shifting every few weeks. Like, let me just focus on like what is the lifestyle that I could set up now that would make me happy regardless of the achievement. Let's just go do it. cuz like otherwise it's in action, right?

Rory: You're an incredibly well spoken human. You have you have a unique ability to put things into words I think other people struggle to conceptualize

Vinay: and uh I think you'd make a great writer

Rory: Thanks, man.

Vinay: Appreciate it.

Rory: So, if you could send any two guests onto this show, who would you send on?

Vinay: I would send Xerxes. Xerxes Leech of Spectre just incredible wonder kid. He's probably going to hate this [ __ ] answer. He's probably going to read this and you like you [ __ ] Xerxes, get get on get in here. Let's go.

Rory: I mean, Xerxes is like like I have so much respect for that guy. Um, and he is so so multiaceted and smart and he's very philosophical.

Vinay: He's the kind of guy that like, you know, I was hiking with him in Yoseite with one of my buddies, Simon, who we both know from Speechifi. Yeah.

Rory: Um, and you know, me and Simon were going back home and Xerxes is like, I don't really want to go home. So he like drove to the Eastern Sierras and just camped out of his car and then got like a speeding ticket cuz he was like ripping it in his Audi like at some he's just a wild person and then he is like somehow juggling all of this other [ __ ] in his life like

Vinay: he would be an incredible person to get on. I don't know if he will be able to. He likes his privacy. He doesn't like to be super showy online which is just like another like really admiraable admirable quality about him, dude. I mean, like, I don't even know them, but it would be so sick to get someone like El Gillan.

Rory: I feel like his name just comes up so often. And my co-founder, Shahed,

Vinay: had or has maybe still actively has been like working with him. Um, and Shahed has nothing but great things to say and he is everywhere. He is like one of the most accomplished angel investors of all

Rory: Ben, thank you so much for coming on. It's been a pleasure. And for someone who was out until 3 in the morning last night, you're incredibly well spoken.

Vinay: Thank you.

Rory: Appreciate your time. And it was so good to see you.

Vinay: Yeah. Let's go.